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Article - Martin
Crosthwaite interviews John Barry
(February 1979)
MARTYN
CROSTHWAITE: It has been noted that your entry into film music
was the result of working in your father's cinema. Was he operating
cinemas?
JOHN
BARRY: Yes, all his life. From humble beginnings he became a stage
manager in a legitimate theatre in Liverpool and from there he
went into cinema management during the early days, with hand-operated
projectors; and he used to tell me some funny tales about those
times. If you wanted to get off work a little earlier, you would
wind the projector a little faster. MC: So your father was involved
in it from the beginning?
JB: Right
from the first days of motion pictures. After starting as a projectionist,
he worked himself into the position of manager of the Palladium
cinema in Lancaster, where he was born. From there, he moved to
York, in the north of England, where I was born in 1933. It was
during this time in the early 30s that he bought a cinema and
went on to build a chain of eight theatres. MC: And how about
your mother, did she have a career?
JB: Her
father was a sea captain, who, when he retired bought the Repertory
theatre in Lancaster. She was a pianist, though not professionally;
but primarily, she was a wife and mother to her husband and three
children, of which I am the youngest. My brother continues to
operate the three remaining theatres and my sister and her husband
have a thriving pottery business. Between my brother and sister
there are nine children, so things are still active in York.
MC: Just
how exactly did you become involved in film music?
JB: I
went into the army when I was nineteen, we had to serve in the
armed forces at that time, and I played in the military band of
the Green Howards regiment for three years, in Egypt and Cyprus.
During that time, I also took up a correspondence course with
Joseph William Russo, in composition, orchestration and harmony
from Chicago. The band gave me a marvellous opportunity to try
things out with sections of the orchestra. When I was released
from the army I started to do arrangements for the big bands of
the day, people like Johnny Dankworth, Jack Parnell and Ted Heath.
It was a very slow process - I would do an arrangement, send it
down to London, and then it would be broadcast. So I decided to
do something on my own, and with some friends from the army and
York we formed a group and played our first gig at one of my father's
cinemas. From that evolved John Barry and the Seven, as
they were originally called, and that's how it started initially,
playing at concerts, backing Tommy Steele, playing at the Palace
Theatre. It was like a rhythm and blues band, playing Bill Haley's
material, and jazz as well. I played the trumpet-we had quite
a broad scope. MC: Did you do any recordings as John Barry
and the Seven?
JB: Yes,
a number of things, such as Zip, Zip, Three Little Fishes,
Every Which Way on which I sang, I've tried to destroy as
many as I can find.
MC:
I would imagine they must be quite a collector’s item by now.
Do you have any of those albums?
JB:
I don’t, but one of my daughters brought one over from Sweden.
She managed to find one, but I destroy any I can find.
MC: Do
you really sound that bad?
JB: Well
one reviewer wrote that I sang like a 45rpm playing at 33 and
a third. So that gives you some idea.
MC: Did
any of your songs become a hit?
JB: I
did two or three vocals which didn't do a thing - and then we
did a pop programme for the BBC called, Juke Box Jury, and
recorded the theme as Hit and Miss, which became a top
ten hit in England. We followed that with our own cover version
of Walk Don't Run, which was a hit in America for the Ventures
and also a top ten hit for us in 1960.
MC: So
you were quite successful as the John Barry Seven?
JB: To
give you an idea, the top group in England at that time were Cliff
Richard and the Shadows; and we were the number two group.
MC: How
many albums did you actually record with the Seven?
JB: We
were on several package albums put out by EMI with other groups
featured. We did one of our own, Stringbeat in 1961, which
was the group plus strings. Then I did several albums as musical
director for Adam Faith. In those days it was essentially a singles
market rather than albums.
MC: So
you did in fact just one solo album?
JB:
Yes, that plus my first film soundtrack, Beat Girl, which
included the Seven, plus an orchestra.
MC: Why
did you leave the group?
JB: When
I became more involved in composing for films, it became impossible
to do two different jobs. As it was I used to score a film out
of hotel rooms in Manchester and Glasgow. The nature of the two
businesses just didn't co-exist very well so I left the group.
The group continued to tour for the next four or five years without
me. When Paul Anka came to England, the group accompanied him.
The JB7 went all over Scandinavia, England & Ireland, especially
with Tommy Steele. With the film scoring picking up, however,
it just became a little too much to do.
MC: Was Beat Girl the point where you felt you wanted to score
music for films?
JB:
l had always wanted to do it, but it was a matter of how to get
into it. When I became associated with Adam Faith, we had three
or four number one records in a row. So they offered Adam vehicles
to star in, and Beat Girl was the first film he did. It
was through his influence I got the music directorial job. Then
he landed another film, Never Let Go with Peter Sellers,
and again I directed the score as a result. That was my first
decent break at scoring a dramatic film. So it led from pop to
film. I don't think you can start out as a young guy by saying
you want to compose music for films. I think most people in film
music started out in some other area and evolved into it.
MC: Since
you were interested in film scoring, had you been preparing yourself
for it by studying the technical aspects of the field, different
types of musical styles, how to set moods, using leit motif, etc?
JB: Well,
I had a classical background in York when I was sixteen, studying
with Dr. Francis Jackson, who is Master of Music at York Minster,
as well as a correspondence course, the Schillinger System (music
by maths). As far as learning the film scoring techniques, no
one was teaching those types of things. You had to find out the
hard way - by experience. But it was something I was able to learn
quickly. In England at that time, I don't know if it still holds
true today, but there weren't any schools which taught you film
music, or even lectured on it in the late 50s.
MC: Which
of you own compositions are million sellers?
JB: Goldfinger,
Midnight Cowboy were. The musical, Billy was a silver
disc as was Deep Down Inside from The Deep. Born Free was a gold record - it was recorded by thousands of people
and was a phenomenon. BMI, who monitors a songs activity, informed
me it was one of their most performed songs in history. They said
it was topped by one or two others. A certain country in Africa
even wanted to use the song as their national anthem.
MC: Diversifying
into another media. How did you become involved in major television
presentations such as Elizabeth Taylor in London?
JB: I
was approached to do that, along with Sophia Loren in Rome.
MC: Was
that the result of the notoriety of the Bond films?
JB:
Yes, l think so; and also due to the fact that I rented an apartment
in the same square as the producers in London.
MC:
From what I understand, Elizabeth Taylor in London was
so well received that Sophia Loren specifically requested "that
Englishman who worked on Elizabeth", is that true?
JB:
l don't know if it's true or not. We got along really well together
and she even recorded a song, The Secrets of Rome, but
I don't know.
MC:
So you did get to meet her?
JB:
Oh yes. I went down to Rome to work with her.
MC:
And you met Elizabeth Taylor also?
JB:
Yes, yes.
MC:
Did you approach those particular specials with the personality
of the stars or the locations in mind?
JB: Well,
you know one was the story of London, slightly romanticized: and
the same with Sophia Loren in Rome, which was very romanticized.
So it was a combination of the two things - two lovely women and
the background of the city, its history. That was the style with
the mixture of the two things, or were attempted to be anyway.
MC: As
far as film music genres that have made use of John Barry music
there doesn't appear to be too much in westerns or horror. Is
that intentional?
JB:
No, I think it’s due to the fact that most of the time up through
the past few years I was using England as my base for writing
and we don't make westerns out of England. I was offered one with
Sean Connery and Brigitte Bardot, Shalako, which I thought
I might like to do. Then I saw the film and decided I didn't.
So there was an opportunity. The only westerns I've actually done
are Monte Walsh and The White Buffalo. In terms
of horror films, I've never been offered one to do. Because most
of the horror films made in England are really low budget numbers,
I've never entertained the prospect. They weren't really classic
things. But I'd love to do a horror film, come to think of it.
MC: So
you don't go out looking for a particular type of film to do?
JB: No,
I try not to go after anything, in fact (he laughs).
MG: You
mentioned a daughter that had gone to Sweden, Do you have any
sons, or perhaps, a daughter that would be interested in following
in your footsteps?
JB: No.
I have three daughters, they all dabbled in the arts, a little ballet,
piano, guitar; but none of them have come through with any mad desire
to do it.
MG: Do
they all reside in England?
JB: No,
My eldest is 18. She lives in London, 1 have one who's 15 and lives
in Stockholm. Then there's one who's 12 and lives in Paris.
MG: You have an international family in every sense,
JB: Exactly,
yes,
MC: Now
onto another area which greatly interests you, the theatre, and
your first musical show, Passion Flower Hotel.
JB: Passion
Flower Hotel ran for six months at the Prince of Wales theatre
in London’s West End.
MC: Your
last musical was Billy, which you helped subsidise - did
you do the same for your previous ones?
JB:
In the case of Billy I didn't actually put any money up front,
but subsidized it by securing the rights. I got Michael Crawford,
a producer and two writers. So I got the package together and worked
with people who I felt would work well as a team. I brought in director
Patrick Garland, who I had worked with on A Dolls House. It
was an interesting project because they hadn't worked on a musical
before.
MC:
And were you approached to do Lolita, My Love?
JB: Lyricist,
Alan J. Lerner called me in London and asked me if I would like
to do it.
MC: Was
there any specific reason why he asked you, had he seen Passion
Flower Hotel?
JB:
No. I think he had done Coco with Katherine Hepburn, who
I knew from The Lion in Winter. We were mutually interested
in a property at that time, The Little Prince. Katie Hepburn
told Alan that he should get in touch with me because we had this
interest in a property. So he discussed that with me, but asked
if I would first like to do Lolita, My Love. He came over
to London, we met ... and the show was an absolute disaster We opened
in Philadelphia to very bad reviews, went back to New York to rehearse
again, then off to Boston; and it was getting into better shape
- the first act at least was better in Boston. Mike Nichols came
to see it, and wanted to direct it, but unfortunately he had other
commitments. So it was my intention to put it on the shelf for a
while and work out the problems with Mike, but that wasn't to be
and we folded with a $900,000 deficit. It was a shame because the
first act really came together - it was a black musical comedy -
very funny, very witty and I thought it had great style. It was
very difficult to close it.
Were
any recordings made from Lolita, My Love (1971)? Private
pressings that were produced for the shows backers?
No,
in that instance both Alan Jay Lerner and I would demonstrate the
musical numbers on the piano. There were one or two recordings made,
one by Robert Goulet, In the Broken Promised Land of Fifteen and Going, Going, Gone by Shirley Bassey. A couple of
non-commercial singles were recorded on the Medisound label; but
no cast album ever materialized.
During
the 60s you worked on a stage musical, Brighton Rock. What
became of it?
That
was Graham Greene's, Brighton Rock, which I had wanted to
do for a long time and worked on it for a lengthy period, writing
many songs for it. But alas nothing came of it. It was one of the
few true stories of English gang warfare that existed on a very
heavy level in England during the 1930s and concerned the racetrack
operators in Brighton, which I thought was very colourful. We couldn't,
however, get around the fact that the central character was a very
despicable person, and to have that as a musical show appeared to
be a problem.
So
that was something that was in the planning stages, but never came
to fruition?
It
wasn't staged anywhere. When certain problems appear insurmountable
- personality problems etc; it's not an easy undertaking. I also
worked for six months on The Great Gatsby, in New York, but
again all for nothing. Stage musicals are perhaps the most difficult
things I have had to do.
In
spite of that difficulty, do you have any plans for another show?
At
the moment, both Don Black and I are working on an American version
of Billy, which was very successful for us when it ran in
London from 1974. We intend to rework the score, adding some new
songs and adapting it for the audience here.
It
now seems that, unlike the past, when Los Angeles was a tryout for
musicals, it is now a launching pad?
It
can be, which is nice to see it open up that way so you aren't at
the mercy of the New York situation.
Now
you are residing in Hollywood, was there a specific reason why you
decided to leave England?
I
left England and was living in Spain where I was in the process
of having a house built. During which time I was offered, Eleanor
and Franklin (1976) for American television. So I went to the
States in October 1975 for six weeks to do that job, but have stayed
ever since. It wasn't my intention to do so, but then I got offered King Kong (1976), then Robin and Marian (1976) for
Richard Lester, which was an immediate situation. Initially I lived
at the Beverly Hills Hotel, bungalow 15.
So
you still have your house in Spain?
I’m
trying to sell it (he laughs) – it’s unfinished. The builder is
still there with a brick in his hand waiting for my next direction.
So
it was just the circumstances which required you to stay on?
Absolutely.
And then I met my wife. So here I am.
How
do you formulate ideas for writing?
When
you are approached to do a film score, you either like the work
and go along with it, or if you don't you just walk away.
Some
jobs you may find ideas right away and others take so long - does
that happen to you?
Yes.
Sometimes you work on a film and you seem to be getting nowhere.
You haven't been able to figure the film out. Then some little thought
comes into your mind and the whole thing falls into place. You keep
thinking something is redundant, but then realise it's part of the
cleaning out process.
How
much does the film determine the requirements and style of your
music?
Totally,
absolutely totally. The subject matter, the design of the film is
the total priority.
For
period films like, The Lion in Winter (1968) and The Last Valley
(1970), your music appears to be similarly styled?
Yes,
they were both period drama films and I suppose was asked to do The Last Valley because of The Lion in Winter. There
is a lot of that in the business. When I did the Bond films in the
beginning I got offered all the other spy films being made. But
I found another way to score The Ouiller Memorandum (1966),
so it wasn't like any James Bond score. You try and attempt
a fresh approach for the same subject matter.
Did
you write the lyrics for Vivre et Mourir as sung by Vanessa
Redgrave in, Mary, Queen of Scots (1971)?
It
is actually a French poem written by Mary, Queen of Scots herself.
How
do you feel about the title song mania and the entry of record companies
into the business of paying music production costs for a hit record
from a film?
I
was part of the whole Bond thing, and that became part of
the required style. It has been and it still is, the big title song,
the flash titles, etc... That’s fine with me. What I am against
is it being forced indiscriminately by music people who haven't
got the first idea about the dramatic intensions of the film. It
can be a very destructive thing. When I worked on The Betsy (1977),
they wanted a song for a party sequence, so I wrote one. It was,
however, too intrusive against the dialogue, so I think the producer
made the right decision by taking it out.
MG: How
long did it take you to write the 'Main Theme for The Betsy? It's
a very nice piece of music.
JB: I
did it rather quickly, matter of fact. One night - I was living
in Malibu at the time - my future wife flew in from New York. I
wasn't married to her at the time. We had a good evening, and the
next morning I got up and wrote it (he laughs). Of course, it isn't
until noon before I get any inspiration.
Is
it correct that you were not happy with The White Buffalo (1977)?
That
was the film which had a previous score to mine. It was Christmas
and I'd just finished King Kong for producer Dino De Laurentiis,
when Dino called me saying he had another film titled, The White
Buffalo, which he had promised to have me score as a present
for the films writer, Richard Sale. I quite liked the nature of
the film, but there was a lot of changes to the released print.
I also knew that the music had been tampered with. Sequences had
music put here and there. The whole thing was rather an unfortunate
experience, not so much for me, but for the moviemakers.
And
so, how long did you take to complete the score?
That
was a very rushed situation, because they had a delivery date in
one of the foreign markets.
Was
an album ever planned for release?
There
wasn't enough variety of music to warrant an album. We talked about
an album by developing themes, but the film was not successful,
so they didn't pursue it.
How
do you see the role of the film composer? Has it changed since you
first began in the industry?
It
has changed a lot insofar as the role of popular music has increased
greatly. That is the most significant external influence... and
some of it is good, as in Midnight Cowboy (1969). In that
situation, I thought it was an excellent integration of pop music
of the day. That atmosphere, using songs to score dramatically was
good and worked well. That influence and the ever-increasing financial
involvement of music companies are important to some producers,
while others don't care. In Goldfinger (1964); Harry Saltzman
never liked the song and wanted to take it out of the movie. Cubby
Broccoli on the other hand liked it, while the director didn't care
whether it was a big hit or not. It was ideal for the character
of the film and was a huge success. It's a rather strange song when
you think of it, not the type of song you would write away from
the film.
What
other film composers do you admire, and which scores have impressed
you?
Alex
North is my favourite American composer and I love his score for A Streetcar Named Desire (1951), which I believe is one of
the finest mixtures of jazz into film without being conscious of
it. Also his scores for Spartacus (1960) and Who's Afraid
of Virginia Woolf? (1966) are impressive. The late Nino Rota's
work I also love – I thought he was brilliant.
How
about Jerry Goldsmith?
I
like Jerry Goldsmith’s music. He’s a good composer.
Do
you associate with any of the Hollywood composers?
Elmer
Bernstein, Bill Conti and Henry Mancini I see occasionally. We don’t
lead a very large social life. Unfortunately I have yet to meet
Alex North. Ken Hall, who is usually my music editor, is a very
close friend of his and we have been meaning to get together with
Alex.
Do
you think that now you are living in America more of your music
will be released on albums, possibly main themes from your film
and television work? Like Eleanor and Franklin and The Corn Is Green?
Maybe.
You know Eleanor and Franklin created a big buzz here and
I still receive letters about that score. I did in fact record the
theme on the flip side of a single from The Deep (1977) issued
by Casablanca records. There is such a terrible confusion here with
record companies, with mergers etc., that getting things set up
is difficult. Maybe I could do something similar to those CBS albums
of mine in the sixties. But I don't know if that kind of packaging
would sell in the record market today.
When
accepting King Kong, did you have any misgivings that
people would compare it with the original?
No,
no. It didn't worry me a bit.
Did
you feel you had to shy away from a certain style because it might
sound like the original?
No,
I didn't go back and listen to it. I only remembered the original King Kong (1933) from many earlier viewings. Every film has
its own life, its own specifics, its own period of time, so that
was never a problem. What I did was a reaction to what was on the
screen, and I just went ahead and did it.
Although
you had scored large budget films prior to King Kong, this was one
of the most expensive films ever made at that time. Did you have
that pressure of having to come up with something special?
Well,
you hopefully rise to the occasion and deliver a marvellous score
for them. You have to go in and do your best. There's always that
commercial aspect, creating a hit song. We didn’t have a song in
‘Kong’. I think you have to work the best you can with the mood
of the film. If you have a lot of excitement, you want to keep the
momentum going. It rubs off on you. The real pressure is time.
When
you saw the final cut of the film, what did you think?
That
was the first time I had scored a film in that way. I never saw
a final cut, but scored the film reel by reel as they shot it in
sequence. This was because of the race to get a Kong film out first
between Universal and Dino De Laurentiss (Universal accepted defeat
and withdrew). The whole film was laid out in sequence so that while
I was working I couldn’t see the end of the film. I didn't see the
completed film. One read the script of course, but it was the first
time I, or anyone else had worked in that way. The final cut wasn't
ready until two or three weeks before the films release and that
was the first time anyone had seen it. So it wasn't a question of
seeing a film and saying how you liked or disliked it.
Were
you satisfied with the results of the score and the sale of the
album?
I was, yes although the album didn't sell as well
as they thought it would, but it did okay.
When
selecting your assignments what are the deciding factors?
If
you feel you are right for it. Then there are films you turn down
because you know you are the wrong composer for the job. Quality
is another factor to consider very carefully. And if you don't have
any specific project lined up and you think that you could have
a bit of fun with a score, such as Game of Death (1978),
which I did because of the Bruce Lee cult.
You
have worked with many fine directors, the likes of John Schlesinger,
Arthur Penn, Nicholas Roeg, George Cukor etc. Which have impressed
you the most?
I
would say John Schlesinger is the most interesting to work with,
because of his knowledge of music. He's directed Opera, and really
knows music. He also knows very much what he wants from every character
down to a very fine point.
How
about Bryan Forbes?
Bryan
has a strong sense of what he likes but he doesn’t have the same
degree of musical knowledge that John seems to process. But he does
know the field, and he’s always given me a great deal of freedom.
The freedom to do a great number of things within the field of the
film - to experiment; he’s been marvelous.
For Deadfall (1968) you wrote a portion of music before you saw
the sequence it was to be used for?
That
was the "Guitar Concerto", which was written and recorded before
Bryan shot the sequence. We talked over what the scene was going
to be, the sequence of events, the tensions, the build-ups etc.,
I had a synopsis of that, and then I wrote the Romance for Guitar
and Orchestra for that scene.
It's
certainly one of your finest achievements.
I
am rather proud of it.
How
does the director work with you, does he instruct you when and where
music should go?
Well,
no. One of the important things for a composer to do is to help
the director decide where music should or should not go in the film.
Directors have some preconceived ideas, some of which are not helpful.
They're rather too obvious. I think a good film composer will come
through with a fresh idea or something different. And good directors
usually listen. I have very little trouble with directors, very
little.
How
do the sometimes crushing time schedules for a film score affect
you? Do you think your work would be any better without deadlines
to meet?
No,
most composers seem to like it better that way. Should you be given
more time you tend to procrastinate until the deadline period. On
most films you get about four or five weeks. I've rarely been given
more than that. To create the thematic material, you get a bit longer;
but from the time you actually get the final cut four or five weeks
is the normal time. Sometimes less.
What
is the minimum time you have been given to write a score?
The
Man with the Golden Gun (1974) I did in two weeks, which was
recorded in England. I left Los Angeles on the Sunday after completing
my work on The Day of the Locust (1974), and started on the
Bond film on the Monday.
Do
film companies commit their work to you alone or choose from several
people?
For
most films, either the director or producer has a desire for a particular
composer; and then the question of availability comes up. Most good
directors have a pretty firm idea as to who they want to do their
film, but don't necessarily go for the same composer for each film
they do, that rather depends on the subject matter involved.
It
has been rumoured that on The Deep (1977), John Williams
was originally assigned to the film. Is that correct?
John
Williams was not asked to do it and that rumour was totally inaccurate.
He was, I believe, doing Star Wars (1977) at the time. It
was the American magazine High Fidelity, which ran a review
of the album for The Deep, who said that I was under pressure,
because I had been brought in after John Williams had left - it
simply wasn't true.
Did
you like your score for The Deep?
If
you noticed a lot of things which happened, happened without the
music. When I first viewed the film, I found it difficult to write
music for it, because the eye doesn't relate to purely visuals like
it does to dialogue. Naturally there was no dialogue underwater,
so it was purely visual and you had to lead the audience through
the visuals, creating tension, etc. It was not easy to do that at
all and that remains the most difficult film I have had to score.
Would
you consider The Deep to be a departure in your style of
writing?
Well,
personally I can see a lot of things in it which are a lot closer
to me than a lot of my other scores. There's such a challenge in
trying to transfer the terror of being underwater and communicating
the nightmare that must be in that situation. That was the intent
with my score.
I
was disappointed that the album did not contain certain pieces featured
in the film, such as the shark sequence?
That
happens. You get a movie that has that amount of music in it - it
had almost an hour of music in it, and then we re-recorded the album.
I cut most of the underwater material into a ballet and the other
side was very commercially oriented. Therefore certain things weren't
used. What you'd like to do is develop music from strong emotional
moments, expand upon them since many are too short to put on record,
maybe 20 or 30 seconds.
A
recent disappointment was the fact that several of your scores have
not been recorded, such as The Betsy (1977) and Hanover
Street (1979). Was there any reason why they were cancelled?
On The Betsy they had a situation where the theme was not considered
commercial enough. It was fine for the film, but not for recording
purposes. That's a dilemma we constantly go through. However, I
couldn't see why it shouldn't be released if the theme was reframed
in a commercial vein like say the theme from Love Story (1970).
I do feel the theme for Hanover Street was very traditional
romantic movie music, but also very commercial. It would have to
be reframed, but you don't want to prostitute your score by doing
it disco style, when it isn't appropriate. The style of the film
had to be elegant and that theme was. So you stay true to the art
and nature of the film.
Do
you use an orchestrator on your work at all?
I
orchestrate about 90% of the work I do. But in the case of rushed
deadlines, rewrites, where I don't have the time, I will use orchestrators.
Generally, however I like to do the orchestrating myself. That's
half the fun of it.
Did
you use an orchestrator on The Lion in Winter (1968)?
I
used Bobby Richards, an English orchestrator, because we were pushed
into a three week period of recording delivery time. (he later used
Bobby on Billy (1974). In America, every composer uses an
orchestrator without fail. It's a union rule. I just finished Starcrash
which has over an hour of music, and I did everything myself. It’s
not any disrespect for orchestrators as there are many fine ones
around. However I like to stay close to the material and if I can,
I like to do it myself. There are some composers who can't orchestrate
and many orchestrators are not only orchestrating, but also arranging.
That does exist.
Has
your musical style changed very much?
Well,
I think that I could do a diverse group of pictures, and yet, someone
will tell me that they knew I had scored them. So I think a certain
characteristic comes through in my music, no matter what changes
you have to do dramatically. Of my own work I think it's a harmonic,
melodic and motif style I have, which I'm quite pleased with and
don't mind that existing at all. When you write scores that no one
knows who did them, there must be something wrong. There must be
something that comes through so that people will say 'I knew that
was your score'. When John Schlesinger saw Katharine Hepburn in The Glass Menagerie (1973) on television, it had a very simple
piano piece, which was unlike anything I had ever done before, John
Schlesinger kept saying to himself that I had scored it - but he
couldn't believe it until he saw my credit.
MC:
What was your most difficult score?
JB:
I would say maybe ‘King Kong’, because structurally you didn't
have the complete film to know where you were heading. Normally,
you have the whole movie to reflect on the shape of the entire score
- where the highs are going to be, where the lows are, how you're
going to build in the music; you sense how to use it, melodically
and rhythmically, etc. So to work reel by reel is the most difficult
thing, because you're kind of guessing.
MC:
Did you have ideas prior to actually scoring ‘King Kong’ of how
you would approach it?
JB:
The ‘Main Theme’ I wrote in front, and recorded it on a piano so
that Dino (De Laurentiis, the Producer) and John Guillermin (the
director) could listen to it. They had requested a sort of romantic
theme, but at the same time, I thought it shouldn't be softly romantic;
it needed a strength to it, a certain strangeness, which I think
we accomplished. This is where you get into the conflict of what
is commercial and what is right for the picture. The element of
seeing that ape with that lady, being romantic, to be accurate without
losing the audience - it's a fine line to hit on. So we started
out with that theme and developed from there the rest of the score.
Do
you know the status of your various James Bond soundtrack albums?
I
really don't know. I browse through record shops and still see things
like Goldfinger (1964). I would think some of them are still
available and they would reprint them from time to time.
Was
there any particular reason why you didn't score Live and Let
Die (1973)?
I
was doing Billy for the London stage at the time and also
had fallen out with the producer Harry Saltzman (but not with Cubby).
So it was a combination of the two things.
You
also didn't do the score for The Spy Who Loved Me (1977)?
Right.
The union rules are that if the picture is made in England, the
score must be done in London, and I no longer work there. The new
Bond film, Moonraker, is an Anglo-French co-production; and therefore
it will be recorded in Paris. So I’ll be doing it there.
Is
that a requirement of their’s?
Yes,
it is.
You’ve
called your Bond scores, ‘Mickey Mouse’ music?
No,
I’ve said they were ‘Million Dollar Mickey Mouse’ – it’s the million
dollars that’s the key phrase.
Do
you still enjoy scoring 'Bond' films?
I
love them. The action and the drama of it all is all there on the
screen. We all know he's going to come out okay at the end of it,
but you try to treat it seriously like he isn't. A ten year old
in the front row really thinks that his hero is going to get it
and the villains are going to win. I treat it seriously and take
the audience through the dramatic trip.
MC:
Any chance of seeing a recording for "Hanover Street"?
JB: I
would very much like to see it, as I'm very pleased with the score.
MC: I
would imagine ‘Moonraker' and ‘The Black Hole' will have soundtracks?
JB: I
would think, yes.
IE: Are
there any other assignments this year?
JR: Well,
that is enough. "Moonraker' will have about 1 1/4 hours of music.
There'll be more music in this 'Bond' film than the others, because
it is such a big Picture. ‘Black Hole’ is a similar situation,
requiring a lot of music. It will be for Christmas release.
MC: Have you done any music for that Disney film yet?
JB: Not
yet (as of February). I'll be seeing what they've shot and then
get some ideas and go from there.
MC: Getting
back to the ‘Bond’ films - when you start one knowing you need a
theme song, who suggests who to get for the lyrics?
JB: Well,
on 'Moonraker’ I suggested Paul Williams to Cubby Broccoli, because
I think he is such a fine lyricist and Cubby agreed.
Who
chooses the vocalists for the 'Bond' films?
Well,
we put our heads together and think of who's hot at the time, who'd
be right for the song. For OHMSS (1969) we had the song 'We
Have All the Time in the World' and I suggested that Louis Armstrong
would be ideal and Cubby Broccoli agreed. So we recorded it with
Louis Armstrong. There was no commercial consideration on that discussion.
Was
there any particular reason why Dionne Warwick's vocal in Thunderball
(1965) was not used?
It
was thought that Thunderball for a title song was wrong.
So the producers agreed to have a vocal 'Mr Kiss Kiss Bang Bang'
over the title credits and Dionne recorded it. Then at the last
minute they got cold feet, and said 'Let's have a song called Thunderball'.
So we did it and got Tom Jones to sing it. Dionne's was a marvellous
song and she did a great arrangement for it. It was really a strange
song. I had about 12 cow bells on it with different rhythms along
with a large orchestra. I thought it was a very original piece.
Were
you asked to score Zulu Dawn (1979) after the success of Zulu (1963)?
I
was asked to do Living Free (1972) after Born Free (1966),
but I refused because I don't think you can pull it off twice. You
might be lucky. I think the 'Bond' and 'Pink Panther' films are
a unique exception. I thought it would be best to have someone else
score Zulu Dawn and so I let it be known I wasn't interested.
Would
the director be inclined in a situation like that to tell the composer
to try and imitate the style of the original Zulu?
He
may, yes. He may use the same theme, like in Living Free, they
used Born Free to a degree, but they kept it down to a minimum,
but they may say use some of my music from Zulu. I loved Zulu, loved it! I took some original music from Africa, like
a wedding melody and other themes and westernized them. But they
were so good, so very basic, so wonderful in the film and so simple.
Just two chord changes and yet so good.
Do
you like scoring films here or in Europe?
I
love recording here now. I love the Burbank Studios and their superb
engineers. England was fine and I loved recording at the old CTS
Studios. I haven’t recorded in Paris before, but the last time I
was there I went to see where I would be recording this time. You're
always more comfortable when you've worked somewhere before, knowing
the strengths and weaknesses of the studio. I’m looking forward
to recording in Paris.
Which
of your scores had done the most to bring you to the attention of
producers?
I
had a very fortunate situation at the beginning of my career in
that I did three relatively small pictures. Then I was asked to
do Dr No (1962), so that created a very commercial situation
on that level. And at the same time I did Séance On a
Wet Afternoon (1964) for Bryan Forbes, which was considered
the 'kitchen sink, art-house' type of film. So I had three or four
years of a solid relationship of doing 'Bond' movies and Bryan Forbes
movies. The two levels of work created a very nice situation for
me and I was very lucky in that those two elements occurred at the
same time.
What
happened to your score for First Love (1977)?
That's
a long story. Before I was involved in the project they had already
had the idea of having a song score. Then the director, Joan Darling
and the producer felt it wasn't working so they showed me the movie
and I wrote some music of a more traditional style, which I felt,
and they seemed to agree at the time, gave it more genuine emotion.
They felt it was what the picture needed. Then after I had finished
the score, they came back and said they had doubts about it. One
of the executives at Paramount pictures liked the music, but thought
it was too mature for the film. That's one of the strangest criticisms
I've ever had. So then they wanted to revert back to sticking some
songs in the picture and use a little of my music. I told them that
if they were going to do that, they had better remove my name from
the credits. I eventually saw it on Cable television and it sounded
like it had, three or four composers going in as many different
directions. It was a totally unsatisfying exercise.
But
the 'Love theme' in the film, was that yours?
I
didn't hear it. I heard little bits, just fragments. The main piece
I wrote didn't end up in the film, just secondary themes.
How
about for Man in the Middle (1964). You did compose that
score.
Yes,
Lionel Bart wrote a 'Main theme', which I arranged and I wrote the
remainder of the original music. I also arranged the music of Glen
Miller which was used in the film.
Was
there any particular reason why some selections from Beat Girl (1960)
were used in Deadfall (1968)?
As
I recall we recorded a band out of Mallorca and thought they had
clearance for the tunes to be used in the film, but later found
out they didn't. So we had to find some music which was owned by
Twentieth Century-Fox or Robbins music publishers. The only thing
I could think of at that time was the music from Beat Girl so
because it was a last minute thing we used it.
What
is your favourite composition of your own, or the one you are happiest
with?
I
like The Lion in Winter very much and The Knack. Of
the 'Bond' scores I like Goldfinger because I hit it perfectly
and after that it was just more of the same.
Do
you know if there was an Italian album released from The Tamarind
Seed (1974)?
No,
I don't. I've never heard of such an album. We never made a recording
for an album. But what happens in foreign countries is that the
film is sent over there, and then dubbed into Italian, Japanese,
or whatever. They will also send a clear track of just the music
without sound-effects and dialogue. So what they shouldn't be doing,
but in many cases do, is to tape the music track and make an illegal
album.
I
would imagine that the music would sound rather fragmented or funny
in that state?
Oh,
yes. They sound bad. Most of the one's I've heard indicate the person
doesn't have any idea about programming an album and the quality
of the recording is inferior; because they're not dealing with the
original 16 track tape, but taking it off a 3 track or a monaural
copy.
Have
you ever turned down a film assignment which went on to be a big
success?
I
was going to do Love Story (1970) when the director Anthony
Harvey, was involved with it. I also turned down Anne of the
Thousand Days (1969), but overall I've been pretty lucky in
that sense.
How
did you get involved in writing music for television commercials?
I
was approached to do them in the mid-Sixties. The Girl with the
Sun in Her Hair for the Sunsilk Shampoo advert is one of the
longest running commercials. I also did one here for Eastern
Airlines, which won an award for best music for a commercial
in 1968.
Realizing
you have a full schedule, do you pursue any other hobbies?
I
like reading, mainly non film-related material. The classics of
literature, political things -anything I can get my hands on.
Have
you gone in for jogging?
Oh,
no. I think it's silly. I have a house in the Sierras and when I
get up there I do a lot of walking.
Do
you ski at all when you are there?
I'm
sure I'd break my neck if I went skiing.
I
would have thought that since you are an international traveller,
you'd be commuting to Switzerland for the skiing on the Alps?
Oh,
no. I just love to do the nice leisurely things -and very slowly.
I love to swim in my pool.
Were
you active in athletics when you were at school in England?
I
used to play rugby, if you can believe that? Also cricket and rowing.
But once I left school I never pursued those sports again.
Have
you ever thought of breaking away from film scoring to do other
forms of music?
I
love the celluloid world. I have done theatre both here and in England
to various degrees of success. I remember when King Kong opened;
in one evening it was shown in 570 theatres. There was over an hours'
music in the film and it was the largest audience for a performance
of music. If you look at it that way; that score was heard by more
people than ever before. It's crazy, but it's true - and that to
me, is electrifying. People are now more aware of film music and
I am happy to continue just doing film scores. I love the variety
it throws at you; every project opens you up in another way.
Have
you done many concerts?
No,
I did the 1972 Filmharmonic at the Royal Albert Hall in London,
and one here at the Hollywood Bowl with the Los Angeles Philharmonic
- that was a nightmare. I was delayed 24 hours by the airlines and
so I only had a two hour rehearsal in the morning, just one run-through.
The actual concert was in the evening. It was a nightmare, an absolute
nightmare. The Bowl was filled with umpteen thousand people and
I was a nervous wreck. I've subsequently been asked to perform,
but unless you can do it right it's no good.
Did
you enjoy the Filmharmonic concert with Miklos Rozsa?
I
enjoyed doing that. I also took an orchestra to Japan for 30 one-night
stands. That was fantastic. It was a concert of film music, mine
and other peoples. The Japanese were so well organized with the
concert halls filled to capacity. The people out there are so appreciative.
During the performance they were as quiet as mice, but at the end
they let you know how much they enjoyed it. What (found interesting
was the mixture of cultures. You'd have students sitting next to
their grandparents in traditional dress. I wouldn't mind doing another
concert tour of Japan.
|
John
Barry and orchestra; concert tour in Japan, 1975 |
|
|
Have
you enjoyed scoring for television?
It's
the same as doing films. I think all the television movies I have
done have been the same length as feature films, so it comes down
to virtually the same thing.
You've
never done a score for a television series?
No,
I've never done them and would never consider doing them. I have
done themes for television like The Persuaders with Roger
Moore.
Is
there something career wise that you feel you have yet to achieve?
I
would like to do a successful stage musical on Broadway. At the
moment I am working on a U.S. version of Billy with Don Black.
I would also very much like to direct a film and do a film musical
of a different nature.
You
did Alice's Adventures in Wonderland?
I
did that in England, which unfortunately was the director's first
film assignment and it didn't really come off as we had all intended.
We were also intending to do musicals of Gulliver's Travels and Cinderella, but nothing came of them.
Do
you think that at some point you'll want to slow down and take more
time off?
Well,
I did that the year before I came over here. I went to Mallorca
and I didn't work for a year. I just did the Americans (1976)
album for Polydor, but I had a whole year away from the business.
It was nice to take time off and just to relax, recover your thoughts
or do something different - like an album or concert.
What
determines whether there will be a soundtrack album released for
a film?
Well,
soundtrack albums have had a history. In the Sixties, if you had
a movie, it also usually meant an album release. Then soundtracks
took a dive and hit a terrible slump. Now it seems they are coming
back. A lot of them are song related albums, but there are also
the symphonic type of scores by John Williams and the like. There
is a renewed interest in film scores. These things go in cycles
- but if soundtracks sell well more will be released.
Do
you as a composer have any influence on their release?
I
try as best I can to exert any influence for their issue. On any
film there are record companies which have the option on the soundtrack
and if they don't wish to exercise that option, then you have to
try to find someone who is interested.
Is
it a very expensive proposition to release a soundtrack album?
In
order to release an album, you have to pay re-use fees. So if you're
doing something like Hanover Street, which had about 70 musicians,
you have to pay them again. It's not like a rock score with 10 musicians.
You're going into do a full romantic score and with so many musicians
to pay again, you have to weigh the commercial potential for the
sale of the album. They want to recoup their costs, so they have
to determine how large an audience they have to buy the record.
Is
the re-use fee being paid to the 70 musicians a result of having
to go back into the studio to record the album?
No,
this is just to have the right to record their performance. If you
have to go back to record other music, or re-record certain things,
then these are additional costs.
How
much approximately would 70 musicians cost in re-use fees?
It
would range from $20,000 - $30,000 I would say.
And
what additional costs must be incurred to release an album?
There
are composer’s royalties plus some residual fees that are paid to
the musician’s union fund. I don't know exactly what amount or how
the fees are determined on the latter.
In
addition to the composer who else receives royalties from the album?
If
there's a song on the album, the performer receives a royalty. Sometimes
a production company gets a royalty.
In
the case of reissues instead of an original release, for example, Boom (1968), what is the procedure there?
The
re-use fee needn't be paid in that case. If it is paid once, that's
it. A licensing fee would have to be paid, disclosure of the royalty
structure and contract and to pay the various parties involved.
The
reason I mention this is because there is such a renewed interest
in your scores for Boom (1968) and Mary, Queen of Scots
(1971), among others, that ft would be nice to see them reissued.
I
don't know if the original companies would be game to reissue them,
since they've discontinued them, but I think it would be nice to
see someone reissue them. I would certainly take an active part
in helping an interested company to get the licensing rights to
any of my scores, as it would be in my best interest. I would be
happy to get something like that off the ground. Martyn
Crosthwaite |
